Tak si popsal situaci, ale co s tím. Nepostřehl jsem nějaký návrh či závěr.
Sušky jsou určitě jeden z nejbezpečnějších "písků". To že je tam spousta úrazů je podle mne jednak záležitost čistě statistická. Oblast je to malá a velmi navštěvovaná. Kdybychom vyhodnotili poměr počet úrazů/počet výstupů, nebo počet úrazů/počet cest, tak bychom třeba došli k úplně normálním číslům.
No a druhý důvod jsi myslím popsal. Vyráží tam mnohý začátečník s tím, že o Suškách slyšel jako o zajištěné oblasti, která je úplně jiná než jiné pískovce.
Když jsi zmínil Velkou plotnu, tak tam byl před lety smrťák jenom proto, že si panáček neprovázal (tutové) hodiny na hraně a upad pod druhým. Samozřejmě podlaha.
Ale co s tím? Přece kvůli nezodpovědným, neznalým a nesoudným panáčkům celé Sušky nezanýtujeme.
Martin Mellan
Nejsem proti tomu některou nelogicky a nebezpečně zajištěnou cestu dojistit, ale mohl by to také být nekonečný proces, protože se vždy najde pár nemyslících nadšenců, kteří se i na bezpečně zajištěné cestě zrakví.
Lezení na skalách je a zůstane nebezpečným sportem. Proto nejlepším jištěním by měl zůstat vždy lidský mozek.
Zapsal: JirkaS, 01:14:45 05.05.2001
Ptejte se místních..
Myslím,že by tyhle problémy možná řešil lepší průvodce. Uvést cesty vhodné pro začátečníky, nebo vyznačit cesty kde se někdo dolámal. Já když jsem tam byl poprve, tak bych vubec nevěděl co lízt. Ten písek je opravdu uplne jinej a je třeba se tam trochu rozlízt a je dobry vědět na čem. Je jasny, že někdo klidně zrakvi na stěně, ale s tím nic nenaděláme....
Zapsal: Čočkin, 14:02:12 06.05.2001
Nejzajištěnější superpísek
je samozřejmě Košutecké jezírko v Plzni ! Není znám jedniný případ fatálního pádu končícího smrtí.
Zapsal: John, 21:24:46 06.05.2001
Nebezpečí číhá všude
No Jezero, Hopíno by mohl vyprávět. Jednou lezl Spoďák solo s kartáčkem v hubě ( asi chtěl očistit nějaký chyty ) ujela mu ruka na bahnitym chytu a záda byly na světě... Nebo jednou lez Luky a spadnul pravou botou přímo do hov.. pod stěnou a utřel ho do Hopovo ponožky... Prostě i na Jezírku se padá, proto:
ABYSTE NA PÍSKU NEPADALI, HODNĚ TAM MAGUJTE !!!
Když do průvodce napíšeš jaký cesty jsou vhodný, pěkný apodobně, tak se s nima můžeš rovnou rozloučit, protože se ošlapou, olámaj, ojedou, o...,o...,o...Atd.Jako ve Francii u cest s mnaha hvězdičkami v průvodci Začátečník ať se zeptá někoho přímo na místě. P.S. Nic proti začátečníkům.
Na Suškách lezu už dlouho, většinu cest mám vylezených a na prvním, ale už mi není 17 a morál se někam vytratil. Vyhlašuji tímto kampaň za kvalitní a bezpečné vyborhákování cest, které by si to zasloužily (na Suškách snad všechny kromě Supermajora, Sarah, vršku Cesty brejlovců a pomálu dalších "normálně odjištěných " cest). Proč každé jaro slyšíme nejen na TV Nova o smrtelných úrazech nejen mladých překližkářů, lezení má být pro všechny (i s malým morálem). Začneme na Suškách, pokračujeme na Panťák atd. O měkkém písku se nebavím, tam to prostě nejde. Mrzí mě, že neustále potkávám lezce velmi mladého věku s tak předpotopním myšlením, že mě až mrazí. A to jsem myslel, že generace klasiků prostě sejde věkem a mladá většina je rozdrtí jak názorově, tak pragmatickým přístupem k této problematice. Více už asi zase příšte. Kotli a borhákům zdar!
Pokud na neco nemam, tak do toho nelezu, cest sou na pisku tisice, kazdej si muze vybrat podle libosti to, co je schopen vylezt.Udelat z pisku vapno neni reseni, pac vylizany kreteni se zrakvi i na zajistenejch cestach. Pokud sem posranej, muzu si cestu klidne hodit s hornim,neni vetsi rozdil mezi TR a tim, kdyz mam borhak u kouli a dalsi uz cvakam.Ackoliv je to divny, i u lezeni neni spatny pouzivat taky hlavu a aspon trochu myslet.
Je pravda, ze skaly jsou pro vsechny, ale nektere jen pro ty co na to maji (trenuji, lezou, zvysuji svou dusevni a telesnou odolnost). Ti co si vyjedou do skal jednou za rok a hned by chteli vylezt nejakou peknou dlouhou a narocnou cestu pro ty pisek rozhodne neni.
I ja se bojim jsem z masa a kosti(krome casiti hlavy), ale jestli se chcete nebat zajedte si do Rakouska, jsou zde nadherne vicedelkove trojky zajistene po pul metru, zel velmi oklouzane a vystojite si peknou frontu.
Kdyby tak vypadali Susky nebo jine nase pisky asi by je ochranari brzy zavreli a nebyly by uz pro nikoho.
A nakonec jedna rada: Naucte se zakladat smycky, borhak to sice neni, ale mnohemu uz zachranili zivot.
Jestli zajedete do rakouska na cesty co doporučoval Gobo tak se hlavně nelekněte že borháky nebudou od sebe půl metru, ale malinko dál na to by vám asi ani nestačily čtyři poutka a možná se ane neodlepily od země....lezení zdar...pisek je písek a Labák je Labák a Teplice hytaj druhej dost super dech prostě záleží na přístupu!!!!
Zapsal: Brendy, 13:16:21 14.05.2001
Prejistit pisek???
No nevim, Sem ze Susek, o par "fakt vrazdach" tam vim a nelezu je. Pekny cesty jsou vyhvezdickovane, obcas je JASNE citelna poznamka "SPATNE JISTENO" (prus i par vykricniku), takze pokud nekdo neumi cist (nema pruvodce) je to jeho chyba.
Kdyz si nekdo leze velkou plotnu pouze v prsaku a neprovlekne si ani ty hodiny, pak at se nedivy (ale byl to borec, nespad..:-)).
Supermajor (jak nekdo rikal) ja podle me prejistena cesta presne ve stylu vapna, chybi tam jakakoliv "dusevni" stranka vykonu, u ni je jedno, lezes-li RP ci TR. Dejte si takovyho Majora pekne az nahoru..
Jsem jednoznačně pro dojištění cest na písku. Život a zdraví máme jen jedno a chybu může udělat každej. Asi před třemi lety se na Velký plotně zabil Míra Kraft. Cestu nelezl zdaleka poprvé, smyčky si zakládal, ale bohužel jim důvěřoval příliš. Být tam cestou ke kruhu dva nýty, mohl být dneska naživu. Argument, že by přejištěné cesty lezl každý a cesty se zničily, neobstojí, protože třeba Velká plotna se stejně leze od rána do večera a když se někdo bojí, prostě si počká až někdo cestu vyvede (pochybuju, že se skála přitom ničí míň).
Rada hodit si lano shora taky neni dobrá (počet úrazů z této činnosti je značný), zrovna tak můžu poradit tomu kdo chce trochu adrenalinu, ať borháky necvaká. A nemusí cvakat ani kruhy, ty taky nejsou přírodní, to pak bude teprve zážitek !
Zapsal: Martin M., 18:07:07 14.05.2001
Re:Dojistit
Je mi líto všech, pro který byla metla z nějaké cesty osudná, ale nic nemění na tom, že by se měl respektovat punc prvovýstupu a nemělo by se dít to, s čím se ve skalách začínáme čím dál víc běžně setkávat - opovrhováním výkonu prvolezce. Dobře, pokud se má přidávat jištění do cesty, ať to udělá sám prvovýstupce, má na to plný právo, ale aby skály obcházela banda joudů a rozmlátila cestu, která se jim zlíbí, tak to je už trochu moc. Nejsem pro hyzdění skal!!
Zapsal: ladla, 08:18:44 15.05.2001
Re:dojistit
Co se tyce Velky plotny, tu sem lez poprve tak pred sesti nebo sedmi lety, vubec sem to neznal a v klidu sem si provazal tutovy hodiny na hrane, do sikmy sparky pod druhym sem namontoval asi tri nebo ctyri smyce a bezpecne se dostal ke kruhu.Jakej v tom je problem? Co se tyce TR, pokud si nekdo neco udela pri lezeni s hornim lanem, tak to uz musi bejt vopravdu hodne vylizanej kreten. A ze jich je ve skalach dost.
To je parada, jak se stretavaji nazory ruznych skupin lezcu. Pokud bych mel preparovat jednotlive prispevky, je tu nekolik zajimavych (i mene zajimavych) myslenek. Pokud nekdo chce "dozravat" do moralnich prasku, prosim, jak je libo. Takovych cest bude vzdy dost a dost, Spekove s radosti dodelaji dalsi stovky rocne. Podivejte se na vykonostniho lezce, ktery pri peknem pocasi vyjede ne do Jury, Wildreru, ci Ospu, ale s prateli na Susky. Seznam jeho moznych cest se tak velmi zuzi. Nejvic me dojimaji nazory lidi, kteri pred nekolika malo lety tvrde tlacili borhaky, nyty. Ted (nevim proc) se stali zarytymi klasiky. My, co jsme na Suskach taky spadli (od skoby Majora az do lesa) a prezili, to stejne vyhrajem. Prikladem muze byt Pantak, kde prvni vlna prejisteni uz prisla (jenom Hejtmanek se vratil z Afriky a myslel, ze vytlucenim borhaku spasi svet-zas tam bude, jen nebojte). Na Suskach se situace take zlepsila. Myslim, ze prikladem za vse je Labak a Teplice (tam by Kusko a Kotatko svym tahanim za lano kvuli maglajzu asi neuspeli).
Mrzi me, ze se nebavime na urovni, jestli si nekdo chce provazovat tutovy hodiny, tak at to dal dela. Ostatni si mohou cvaknout borhak. Kdo jen trochu ma penize, tak z toho pisku utika ven. Moralni vykon v ceste je pro me splynuti s cestou, prekonani pohybove sekvence, prekonani svych moznosti, motivace, usilovny trenink atd. Ne dilema jestli si pri hozene desitce hnu s plotynkama, nebo jenom spalim lytko. Ale to uz zase jindy.
Nerekl bych ze jde o dozravani do moralnich prasku. Mozna de jen o to, ze se na pisku leze se smyckama a kruhy sou trochu dal nez dva metry od sebe.Pri lezeni je nejdulezitejsim svalem mozek. Uz ani nevim kterej chytrak tohle rekl, ale naprosto to vystihuje podstatu veci.
Zdar
Jestli jsi spadl od skoby Majora az do lesa, tak te obdivuji za perfektni vykon. Jak se ti ta blbost povedla??? To je jako chlubit se ze si na pousti naboural do jedinyho kaktusu siroko daleko..
Jinak pokud uz na to zdravotne nemas (jak pises), tak to proboha nelez. Snaha dojistit cesty na pisku mi pripada, jako by nekdo chtel zkratit trat maratonu na 21 km, aby ho mohl behat i kdejaky manas, ktery ocividne nema na celou trat. Pokud nema lezec na to, vyplodit pri lezeni i nejaky dusevni vykon (prekonat sam sebe), tak at na pisek nejezdi.. Oblasti s nytem po dvou metrech je na svete urcite vic nez dost.
Ad pady: Pokud nekdo neumi padat, videl jsem na Velke plotne, kdy si pri "banalnim" odskoku (2 metry uplne nahore do smyce) sedre celou nonu a este vyvrkne kotnik, protoze se otoci bokem ke skale a hobluje ji, tak at trenuje i tohle, ja si vzy na jare parkrat skocim abych si to zase overil (ze se mi stary sedak neroztrhne a pod..:-). Predloni jsem si hodil peknou desitku ve Skalaku (rovnou do standu, dopad do rajbasu) a byla to bzunda..:-)) Hlavne to mazani novikovem (tekuty obvaz) cely nohy... Za tejden jsem uz lez, a byl jsem o neco chytrejsi..
O pisku:
Uvedomte si, ze to je specificka oblast, ktera se tak vyvinula. Kdo na
pisku nevyrostl, je cizi (asi jako ja v Srbsku ci Krasu) a tak by mel
respektovat tamejsi zvyklosti. Ja si taky s sebou neberu na vapno kladivo a majzlik abych odsekaval "podle me zbytecny" nejty, kdyz tam de tutovej vklinenec/frend. Tak VY prosim respektujte pisek s tim, ze se musite naucit jistit i necim jinym nez tutovym nejtem metr/dva pod zadkem a vedet, ze sestkovy kroky udelam i 10 metru nad kruhem. Chce to trosku sebevedomi, hodi se i
v "normalnim" zivote..
Ted jsem byl na Borni, a jedina cesta, kterou jsem si opravdu vychutnal
byla Teplicka, protoze v ni bylo jisteni tak akorat (zapomel jsem dole
frendy a mel jen dva hexy a dve smyce. Kruhy zatracene vysoko) a clovek si fakt musel uvedomovat, jestli na dalsi krok ma, nebo ne. Dokonce si mi i zapotila jedna ruka...:-))
Dodatek:
Nejsem proti (naopak pro), aby se dodalo jisteni tam, kde je v cudu puvodni tutovej hrot/hodiny (na Suskach treba Slzava a Diretka na Samotare), ale jinak nic.
PS:
Ze to stejne vyhrajes: Bydlim pod Suskama, velky kladivo i sekacek mam..... Ale prohrajeme oba. Skaly nam totiz zavrou a budeme mit po "ptakach"..
Takovy maníci co jezdí s
ambulancí sbírat popadaný horolezce se po zkušenostech z týhle oblasti asi na tenhle sport nedaj....
Neni to pravda, jeden z nich le muj spolulezec...:-))
Zapsal: Viky, 09:15:12 16.05.2001
Susky asi konci
Taky jsem slysel, ze ochranari se chystaji kvuli sanaci prostredi Susky zavrit, takze s tim dojistovanim to asi nebude nutne. Kazdopadne je to skoda. Osobne myslim, ze prinejmensim stejnou skodu tam nadelaji turisti svymi "vyletky" po neznacenych trasach. Na pisku jsem samozrejme vyrostl a lezu tam dodnes, na prvnim a bojim se. Uzly davat umim a lezu s nima, nohy si neodiram, padam casto a mym letem se nechlubim, pouze dekuji vsem nahoru, ze se nic vaznejsiho nestalo (bylo to strohe konstatovani toho, co se stalo-nastesti dost davno). Vzdy, kdyz na Susky prijedu dam si serii cest, ktere jsou moralove v pohode nebo jdou shora (Supermajor, Gradace, Levitace, Klanovacka, Satanske verse, Prima Jizni, Doktorovka, Sarah, Zapadni, Previsla Vlajkova a jdu domu. Vlastne si ani nestezuju, protoze stejne lezu furt to samy, ale borhaky to by byla parada....
Asi pred dvema lety sem mel moznost zucastnit se akce, kdy k nam na pisek prijela particka lezcu z Anglie v cele s Leo Houldingem(takovej ten typek co leze docela slusny prasky na vapne).No a mozna to nekoho prekvapi,ale nikoho z nich moc nezajimali zajisteny cesty,ale cesty kde si budou muset davat smycky(a voni si je normalne privezli ssebou z Anglie).Takze sem nejeli kvuli nakejm naterum ani si pohodove zalizt,ale proste za dobrodruztvim ze jim muze jit i vo holej...P.S.Minulej tejden sem byl ve Francii na vapne a bylo to dost dobry, no a ted o vikendu sem si uzival v paradni klasicky spare za sedm be na Prachove (20m k prvnimu) a bylo to taky super...preju vsem at si najdete cesty, na kterych budete spokojeny, je jich dost i bez dojisteni!
Zapsal: Satavis, 16:20:43 16.05.2001
Re:Emkacko jeste jednou
Prispevku je tady sice dost ale neda mi jeste nezareagovat na "silene kecy" mistra Emkacka. Nejak mi vubec nedochazi proc clovek s takovymi nazory vubec na pisek jezdi a jeste navic ma tolik drzosti vyhlasovat kampan za prejisteni cest na pisku. Pocet jisteni je zalezitosti prvovystupce a stale i dnes plati pravidlo ze cim je na ceste min zeleza, tim je cesta krasnejsi. Tim ze by se cesty prejistily by ztratily kus sve krasy a vpodstate by je nemelo smysl lezt protoze by prisly o to nejpritazlivejsi a to spojeni lezeni s premyslenim a troskou toho moralu. Ten kdo tohle nechape a neuznava ma spoustu moznosti se vyzit na jinych matrosich s vetsim poctem fixniho jisteni, kterych je i u nas dost.
Nejvic me ale nastvala nasledujici pasaz:Mrzí mě, že neustále potkávám lezce velmi mladého věku s tak předpotopním myšlením, že mě až mrazí. A to jsem myslel, že generace klasiků prostě sejde věkem a mladá většina je rozdrtí... Tohle snad uz nejde ani komentovat. At se nekdy Emkacko podiva na datum prvovystupu a uvedomi si ze tehdy to
mnohdy byl vykon na hranici tehdejsich moznosti. S dnesnima lanama, lezackama, sedakama... to je uplne o necem jinym nez s tehdejsima konopacema a lezenim naboso. Zkratka a dobre lezeni na pisku ma vlastni tradici a filozofii a myslim ze je to tak dobre a hlavne by to tak melo i zustat.
Zaver:
kdyz na tu cestu nemam, nelezu ji a blbe nekecam, ale misto toho lezu to na co mam a casem si pak tu cestu urcite vylezu s tim jistenim ktere tam je.
Zase takovy ohlas, ale to si ani nezaslouzim. Vzdy si rikam: Chce se recese,...asi ne. Nesnazim se rozebirat moznosti prvovystupcu , ani jejich technicke vybaveni. Naopak smekam pred jejich vykony (ja bych to nedokazal, jako ani by nedokazali to co ja). A citace bez uvozovek, panove to uz je ... sranda. Ne, ted vazne. Mel jsem namysli, ze ja osobne nechapu lidi, kteri vyrostli v prostredi protknutem ryze sportovním výkonem bez moralnich zabran a z mne nepochopitelnych duvodu prekonvertovali ke klasicismu. Osobni nazor. Ja zacal na trojkach se smycema a dnes se povazuji za sportovne-vykonostniho lezce. Je treba rozlisovat a odlisovat sportovni lezeni od ostatnich disciplin. Vim, ze spicka nikdy nebudu, ale jako jiny chodi hrat Krajsky prebor ve fotbale, tak ja se snazim, ale lezecka "Sparta" by o me asi zajem nemela. Sport, bez zbytecnych rizikovych faktoru. Myslim, ze i tak jich uz lezeni ma dost. V autech je ABS a airbagy, na kole se jezdi v helme, fauly ve fotbale resi disciplinarni komise, vse podle pravidel, kde predevsim zdravi je na prvnim miste. Tak proc ne i tady. Lezeni respektuji, ale vse se vyviji, i spolecnost, i normy v ni. Proc by pravidla lezeni mela zustavat ve fosilni forme. To by ale mela resit sila jednoty a ne chaby vykrik jednotlivce, ktery stejne radsi bude v lete jezdit do Jury. Pokud dosahnu alespon neceho, tak nejspis toho, ze si to mozna prectete, a treba vas to popudi, ale treba take povzbudi (ci probudi...).Kotli zdar.
Bezpecnost predevsim: Snaha udelat lezeni bezpecnejsim touto cestou mi pripada jako navazet zeminu na sjezdovku, aby nebyla tak strma a nemela terenni nerovnosti, protoze lyzovani je potreba udelat bezpecnejsi, ale neni moudrejsi vybrat si radeji modrou trasu misto cerne, abych se nepolamal? Mimochodem,
jaky je pomer lezcu pouzivajicich helmu pri lezeni k tem bez ni?!! Myslim pri skalkareni nebo na pisku.
Zapsal: maros, 09:50:58 23.05.2001
nbrAgjKCKT
Zdenis: Kateřina Emmons ledbe1 Matta Emmonse, to bych ještě skousnul. Ale ne Emmons Emmonse.jf: Předspěvek do dskiuse byl v tom minule9m čle1nku, tohle je jenom vfdkřik . Nevedm, nečetl jsem, ale podle toho, co pedšeš, to che1pu, že by si měly rozhodovat o tom, jak se budou jmenovat po svatbě. To je sice blbost, ale blbosted je na světě i tak hodně.Ale nemůžou si rozhodovat o tom, jak se jim me1 ředkat v novine1ch, kde jde o stručnost a jasnost sdělened a kde je tedy nezbytne9 přechylovat.To bych si potom je1 se1m se stejnou logikou mohl určit, zda moje jme9no bude sklonne9. A to podle časte9ho pseudoargumentu odpůrců přechylove1ned nened proble9m. Podle jejich ne1zoru asi čedm vedc nesklonnfdch slov, tedm le9pe.
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