Dobry, Maty, takhle bez pruvodcika a viditelnosti musela bejt i tohle slusna frajerina. Jako takovou cenu utechy pro vas mame pripravenou chciplou rybu. Dalsi nocni murou se asi stanu ja. Rad bych si odpustil, lec nemuzu - cestina je dost bohata na to, aby ti, co neumeji pouzivat prechodniky, toto cinit nemuseli. I za to mas u me chciplou rybu. Mejte se vsichni co nejvic.
Zapsal: Magnusek, 13:38:16 10.09.2002
sprt
Magnusek nevotravuj porad s cestinou. Ze jsi cestinarskej vlez prd... nemusej vedet vsichni
Zapsal: pip, 11:02:38 12.09.2002
Cestinari...
Hele, vono tam ale bylo zkurvený počásko, žejo. To se ti na pifku stát nemůže, zajdeš k Peňákovi a sklízíš zasloženej obdif přítomnejch roštěnek.
A češtináři mě taky tohle jo - ... víte co. Já přechodníky taky moc rád a taky je neumím používat. Ale neumim si pomoct. Voni sou takový znělý :-))))
V teoretický rovině s češtinářema souhlasim: osmička je s měkým, smyca s tvrdým, ale nemá se přehánět... se furt dopuštim překlepů a hovadin. Stanovme si pravidlo: reagujem až při třech hrubkách v jednom příspěvku (evidentní překlepy necháváme bez komentáře a za špatné přechodníky pachatele nelynčujeme).
Já bych Tome rozlišoval mezi komentářem a článkem. U článku si myslím, že je jaksi morální povinností toho, kdo chce krmit veřejnost svými texty, mít je správně česky. Vzhledem k možnosti články upravovat a korigovat, si myslím, že to po nich lze oprávněně požadovat a to i s vědomím, že podle Parkinsonova zákona typografie je v každém textu, delším než dvě slova, ještě nejméně jedna chyba, kterou podle modifikovaného zákona korektur, vidí všichni kromě autora. Autor by si měl článek po sobě několikrát přečíst a opravovat i chyby, na které přišli čtenáři.
Jiná situace je u komentářů, které po odeslání již opravovat nelze a tady bych uplatňoval tvoje kritéria.
Přirovnal bych to k lezení: Napsat článek je jako udělat cestu na písku. Aby byl dobrej, dá to hodně práce, pokud se to nemá odfláknout. Taky tu záleží na stylu a dodržování pravidel.
Komentář je naprotitomu něco jako opakování cesty - špatným stylem škodím jen sám sobě a hodnotě svého výstupu.
Souhlasim s Petrem. Clanek by si fakt mel kazdej po sobe precist. U prispevku budiz, preklepnout se muze kazdy. Ovsem pokud je zrejme, ze pachatel se nepreklepava, ze proste nevi, tak je i v jeho zajmu, nechat se zprudit. Jinac nesouhlasim s PIPem. Z jeho druhe vety bych skoro usuzoval, ze je to vul. Ale fuj, takovehle urazky sem prece nepatri :-)
Nojo, dyť ja vim. Máte praudu :-) Ale ten článek se mi líbí (tak nějak popisuje věci co se normálka nepopisujou - protože je všichni známe a máme jich plničký zuby) a voni ty chyby alespoň nejsou hrubky, jak tady bejvá běžný. A to je fakt sqelý, né? A Petře, já se snažím si po sobě číst i komentáře - delší si píšu v texťáku a pak je přetahuju :-) Takže souhlas, jen mám pocit, že se to s tím vzděláváním nemá přehánět. A mimochodem, co to pivo? Kdy se kde potkáme tak abysme (bychom) odsama voba neřídili?
A jinak, jaxemáte?
Zapsal: Tomáš F., 09:52:02 18.09.2002
Češtináři nelezou
Podle teorie P. Jandíka bych tedy nechtěl mnohé komentátory vidět lézt a mnohé autory článků dělat cesty. To by byla katastrofa. K pravopisu jediné: Serte na to, důležitý je obsah. Nechce někdo napsat komentář ke Kaiseru, třeba že je to tam hnusný, lámavý a každý den tam prší, nebo naopak. Já třeba o Kaiseru skoro mic nevím.
Zapsal: R. Voháňka, 11:42:10 18.09.2002
Lezci nemluvi cesky
Jo, taky myslim, ze Maty tu puvodne takovouhle diskusi vzbudit nechtel. A o Kaiseru taky nic nevim.
Zapsal: Magnusek, 12:10:59 18.09.2002
Komentář ke Kajzru
V Kajzru je to boží a skála je náhodou většinou naprosto pevná (teda ve stěnách, vejlezový lehký dýlky bejvaj pochopitelně vysypaný, jako v každejch horách), výběr cest je široký - od klasik kde štanduješ ve skobkách/vklíněncích přes dojištěný klasiky (nerezový kruhy na štandech, občas borháky v dýlce) až po naprosto sportovní cesty (komplet vynejtovaný). Ideální je výjezd na víkend (tak jak to popisuje Maty) na dvě cesty (nebo na jednu s bivakem, že). Z Prahy cesta autem trvá pět hodin. Prší tam každý víkend kdy se tam nachází Maty, no ba ne, občas taky sněží :-) Dobrý je to na jaře když je dole eště sníh a stěny už jsou čistý - nástupy pod stěny jsou mnohem pohodlnější a dole seš po prdeli cobydup.
Je sice fakt, že se mezi špičkovými lezci vyskytují i různí negramoti, ale když někdo dobře leze a dobře píše, je to paráda. Pro příklad netřeba chodit daleko, Jarda Maršík.
Dobrý obsah je podmínka nutná. Bez něj to není k ničemu. Ale teprve dobrý styl a bez hrubek dělá z článku s dobrým obsahem dobrý článek celkově. Nepodezírám autory článků s hrubkami, že neznají pravolis. Oni zpravidla vědí, jak se to má psát. Jenže jsou líní si to po sobě přečíst a opravit a to jim vytýkám. Přitom je to jen pár minut navíc.
A k tomu Kaiseru: Je blízko, to je fajn a pokud někomu vyhovuje převážně svislá členitost, komíny, spáry a podobně, občas trochu vyleštěné, pak se tam vyřádí. Mně osobně se spíš víc líbí Wetterstein, kde je z německé strany pár opravdu pěkných cest, i když nástup je trochu delší.
Bližší informace o Kaiseru, jako oblasti (ne lezení ) jsou na http://www.kaisergebirge.com/ . Jinak ve zkratce. Základní přístup do oblasti je
ze severu (hlavní oblast – Steine Rinne ) – placená silnice na konci parkoviště s chatou. Pro popis oblasti platí co napsal Petr Jandik. Na „oblíbených“ cestách musíte počítat s obvyklým „vyleštěním“ povinných chytů. Pro rakušáky je to něco jako u nás Skalák.
Bacha na chyby! Kritizovat autora za chyby to vám jde , ale podekovani za clanek jsem od nikoho nevidel.
Zapsal: pip, 11:21:42 19.09.2002
re: Co chtej
Kdyby ses díval líp, viděl bys. Je-li článek dobrej, je autorovi dost často poděkováno. Podívej se třeba ke komentářům u článků Jardy Maršíka, nebo Papouše a dalších.
Net obecně považuji za médium které nahrazuje mluvené slovo, proto nedělám ani korekce textu, nerad koktám a opakuji věty. Takže koho se to dotklo, ať si koupí knihu...
Fota jsou nekvalitní jelikož byla mlha a netahám v ruksaku zrcadlovku.
Forma a obsah článku odpovídají náladě ihned po návratu, teď bych to napsal určitě jinak, ale nemam důvod.
Petře, negramot asi jsem, ale naštěstí ne špičkovej lezec, takže nespadám do Tebou označené kategorie, ach ta úleva.
A jestli uslyšim na skalách někoho mluvit nespisovně, nedej bůh sprostě, tak ho strhnu a pošlu domu...
Zapsal: Maty, 09:11:32 23.09.2002
Zlatý fond outdoorového pera
Milý Petře Jandíku,
díky za kompliment, ale přídeš mi možná dost rychlej. Ten komentář si po sobě můžeš přečíst stejně důkladně jako příspěvek, než ho odešleš. Když to tu teda chceš mydlit. :-)
Kromě toho si Tě nějak matně spojuju s jedním časákem - Lidé + Hory, nicht wahr? A někdy ty tiskoviny, hlavně noviny, bejvaj sodoma i po kontrole šesti vočima, šak víš.
Vonehdá jeden kolega vypustil do rotačky, že pod podemletou železnicí vznikly taverny místo kaverny. To by pak pod každym pražcem byla jedna hospa. Teda kdyby se jednalo vo vinnej sklípek, tak by to docela sedělo.
Viděl to redaktor, editor, korektor, projel to snad i strojovej korektor. Jenže ty díry chtěly bejt knajpama, tak si to prosadily.
Zmola - jak tomu hezky říká veterán české klimberské žurnalistiky, nejmenovaný -šp- z Montany. Mimochodem bejt jejich korektorem (Pavel Bubla se zove, ale řekl bych, že ve skutečnosti vůbec neexistuje), tak se do tiráže nenechám napsat. Ten plátek je teda double sodoma! Maj 2 (slovy dva) měsíce na kontrolu a tolik Hrubic.
Když jsme ale u toho zlatého fondu outdoorových pisálků, velmi mi vyhovuje Chroust (srozumitelně popsané testy vybavení, takový neotřelý a přitom nikoli vlezlý jazyk, pregnantní ve vyjadřování), pravý Sudeťan Tschüss Maršík (snoubí se v něm to nejlepší z lezení a z psaného projevu) a docela rád vzpomínám na Filka Šilhana (i když se v tom svém květnatém filozofování někdy mírně utápěl).
Tady na Lezci vydejchám Tebe, Mellouna, někdy i Špitála se Santuskem.
Dobrej flák vo Kajzru, bejby.
Akorát mi sděl, kterej z těch ksichtů seš na těch fotkách Ty. Ať si Tě můžu, byť mlhavě, vizualizovat.
Jinak: Kovářova kobyla chodí bosa, co sokolíku?
"tápeme...vylučovací metodou určujeme pěšinku pro zítřejší nástup...jelikož jsem mapu i průvodce nechal doma."
Svatá prostoto!
"Ano, ano, velevážení. Dnes tu máme další díl o oblastech z mapy Oblasti skalního lezení od oblastního vydavatelství Žaket a je to info o...Kajzru...do hajzlu, kam sem jí dal. Doma je! Já hlava děravá, motyka hloupá..."
Pěknej klučík, ten trasér-mapař, ale mlží, mrzák. Ostrý není, takový esesemácky rozteklý mladý soudruh.
Napadám na nohu, Špicálku, jsem tělesný i duševní krpatec.
Maty, lepší, než propadat pesimismu by bylo kliknout u svého článku na odkaz "úpravy" a těch pár drobností poupravit. Ten článek má dobrej základ (i když to není zrovna příklad dobré metodiky pohybu v horách) a to, co by z něho udělalo dobrej, je technická práce. Kromě těch pár přechodníků, a to je opravený za pár minut, jsou tu ty obrázky. Nevím, jestli ses už podíval na ten vzorek, co jsem ti poslal soukromě, ale tak nějak by to bylo snesitelné. A hlavně je nedělat tak velké, zvlášť když na to nemají ostrost.
S těmi výtkami co do pravopisu jsi to nepochopil správně. Nemusíš psát spisovně, ale když už píšeš nespisovně, nepiš "pýča" s tvrdým "y". To není nespisovné, ale negramotné.
Musím se přiklonit na stranu těch, kteří se tu pravidelně otírají o něčí hrubky.
Souhlas s Petrem J., že nejde o to psát či mluvit spisovně nebo o zřejmé překlepy, ale o skutečné negramotné hrubky.
Opravdu mne tahá za oči (uši?), když čtu takové perly jako "..mi jsme vyrazili...", "smička", "výkend" a podobné perly.
A je docela fuk, jestli to je v novinách, nebo tady v komentáři.
Dlouho předlouho přemýšlím nad tím, proč se dnes tolik lidí nad svým výtvorem ani nepozastaví. Je to snad instantností počítačů? Ale co by jeden čekal, když dnes je možno na hrubky narazit nejenom v novinách, ale i na bilboardech nebo v beletrii?
Fotky fakt nejsou nic moc, neb jsem je dělal za úsvitu po nějaké těžké kalbě na velkoplošném skeneru pro skenování výkresů :-)). Jestli mi Maty ty fotky ještě pujčí, dám druhý pokus.
No, ten skener sice nic moc, ale hlavní problém je následná úprava. Té jsi opravdu nedal to, co by bylo potřeba. Těším se na druhý pokus. Třeba to už snese nějakou pochvalu.
Úprava co si matně pamatuji, žádná nebyla. Ale moc se netěž, nejsem skenerista, neb jsem na barvy pěkně slepej.
Zapsal: Páša, 22:45:20 24.09.2002
Čeština mi nikdy nešla. Třeba něco vytěžím :-).
Zapsal: Páša, 22:48:00 24.09.2002
Fotky
Jsem poněkud postiženej svou hlavní zálibou, takže když narazim na článek z lezení, nejdřív sjedu fotky a teprv pak článek. Čímž se přidávám k už výše napsanýmu. Zkusil jsem ty fotky upravit. Omlouvám se ale nedalo mi to. Bylo to frk frk, moc jsem se s tim nepáral, ale de to. Vim, že každej není zrovna spřátelenej s různýma grafickýma programama (moje lezení se taky dá sotva nazvat lezením :o), prostě každej je šikovnější na něco jinýho), ale škoda zazdít takhle fotky. Možno kouknout: www.lib.cas.cz/tichy/temp. Tam jsou.
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